SPEAKER_02 0:00

I want to come home to a sanctuary. The world beats you down enough, and when I come home, I don't want to feel like I'm still getting beat down.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Welcome to What Are You Making Space For? I'm Star Hansen, certified professional organizer, trauma-informed coach, and clutter whisperer. For more than 20 years, I've seen firsthand that getting organized is almost never about the stuff. Clutter's just the start. Every space tells a story. And behind every pile of clutter, you'll find life transitions, grief, trauma, perfectionism, relationships, dreams we've outgrown, and sometimes the dreams we're just beginning to imagine. On this podcast, we'll step inside real organizing sessions to explore what our belongings are trying to tell us, why we get stuck, and what we're ready to make space for next. These episodes come directly from virtual organizing sessions with people who have generously invited us into their organizing journey by agreeing to share their stories on this podcast. Whether you're hoping to clear a closet, understand yourself a little bit better, or simply feel less alone, I'm glad you're here. Let's find out what we're making space for today. Today we're working with Chelsea and Eric, a couple whose home office has become a bit of a dumping ground over the years. What was once a functional space is now packed with all kinds of things that don't really have a home. And as we'll discover, what's happening in this room is actually connected to some bigger organizing challenges throughout the house. I've worked with Chelsea once before, but today we're bringing Eric into the mix because they have a very different relationship with stuff and very different ways of approaching organizing. And as you can imagine, when you're sharing a home with someone, those differences can make things a little complicated. So today we're going to explore what's happening in their office, what's been getting in their way, and how they can work together to create a home that feels good for both of them. Let's meet Chelsea and Eric. You want to kick us off?

SPEAKER_02 2:02

My name's Eric. I'm a physical therapist. I have a lovely wife, Chelsea. We have two dogs, no kids.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

And I see that we've got the puppies here. Are they going to be part of the organizing process today? Oh, yeah. 100%. He was just like right next to us. How much of the clutter in the office is his?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Oh, the labradoodles.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Well, I am looking at a chewy box.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

I thought there might be something in there. So, in addition to our two dogs, we also foster. We were fortunate enough that a friend recently gifted us two huge bags of puppy food, but one is in the pantry where it belongs, and then there wasn't room for the other one, so it got thrown in the office, like so many other things. I'm Chelsea. I work at a local university, and we live in the home that my dad grew up in. It was the home that my grandparents built in the 50s. So my whole family has spent our entire childhood here. With that comes several things that are in this house that have always been in this house for the 44 years I've ever been here. That also leaves some emotional ties to some of the items that are in this house. On top of that, I have ADHD. So that just adds the whole extra layer to the clutter that accumulates around here. I will say when I saw your email asking for folks to be on a podcast, and you had mentioned doing a partner project, I was like, oh, I would love to do the office together because we are so very different in the way that we tackle things. And while we're definitely supportive of each other and try and hear each other out, it can certainly be frustrating because he has his way, I have my way. And it's difficult to bridge those two. It is important to me to have a clutter-free house. And I know that I'm never going to be a minimalist. I'm not going to be clutter-free per se, but I like coming home to an organized house. It's definitely important for Eric coming home to an organized house. I want him to walk into this space and it be a refuge, not walk in and create more anxiety on top of whatever he experienced that day.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Yeah, that makes sense. If I could wave a magic wand and change your house in some way to make it so that the clutter never showed back up again, what do you think that would look like? That's a really good question.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Short of a bulldozer.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Well, then you'd have no storage space. I'd be tricky.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

No, I you know, that's a good question. We assumed and we thought whenever we got this house had a ton of space.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

2200 square feet at the beginning of people.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

But as we've accumulated things, when I think, you know, wave the magic wand, make it to where we can throw things away easily. Something to where we are not sitting here holding on to something thinking that we're going to use it and it never be used. And I'm guilty of it as well. You know, there's certain things from my family, there's certain things from my mom that I don't want to get rid of. Lord, I still have her on my phone plan and she's been gone for five years.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

I really appreciate that Eric shared that because it's such a good reminder that even when we're comfortable letting things go, there are certain things that keep us connected to the people we've lost. And as we'll discover later, grief has actually played a bigger role in the clutter in this house than either of them realized. But first, let's take a look at how their office became the room of doom. Let's talk about the office. So the office is the space we're doing today. Tell me a little bit about what it has been in the past and what it is now.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

Well, it was an office. It functioned as an office. During COVID, that's where she did her work, was in there because she was, you know, working remotely. And then after that, it just kind of got and forgot about and stuff started piling up. I mean, there's a lot of my stuff in there also. So it's not just hers, it's it's mine as well. But it's almost like out of side, out of mind type deal.

SPEAKER_03 5:45

Chelsea, where are you working now? I do occasionally work from home now. So I would really love that space to be set up back to doing that. And Eric does some work from home sometimes. So that space really needs to suit both of us in an office capacity.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

It sounds like during the pandemic, it was definitely an office. And then somewhere along the line, it turned into the room of doom, which is like the quintessential storage shove space. What made that space so open to be the room of doom?

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Because there was space in there.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

And honestly, sir, like some of that stuff. I think the very first sign of it becoming the catch-all is when I went back to work in the office. I picked up what I needed to take back into the office and left everything else. Like for instance, I know that I have binders and things like that. That I just never, you know, with the ADHD, it's like out of sight, out of mind, my lighthouse turn the other way. My lighthouse.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Yes. Yes. So when Chelsea and I talked in our last session, we were saying that with a lot of people who have ADHD, they have this amazing lighthouse ability where they have this like direct spotlight. And wherever that light is shining, that's what they're focusing on, which is great because it makes them really good at whatever they're giving their attention to, but it means that everything else doesn't exist. So the kickoff for the clutter was when you went back to work. And then it almost became like wishy-washy. It sounds like the space went from being a really strong intentional office to being like, I don't know what I am anymore.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

100%. Because it was like that space was no longer needed every day for that particular task anymore.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Something really interesting happened a few days after our session. Chelsea and Eric were working on the office together when they realized that there was another reason that this room had become such a dumping ground. And it was something that neither of them had really thought about when I asked them the question during our session. A few days later, Chelsea sent me this update.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

A couple of days after we had our session, we had a date night where we worked on both the office and the middle bedroom. And while we were in the office, it became very apparent that one of the catalysts to the office become in the room of doom was the passing of my mother-in-law. She became sick at Christmas in 2020 and then passed away early February of 21. I mean many of the boxes that were in the office contained her belongings. Items we wanted to keep, but items that we were not ready to deal with at that time. And we even had some Christmas presents from that Christmas that were still in the office. It just kind of like when that happened, you know, our world just shut down and we just kind of froze. And I think that with the combination of me returning to work and not needing that office space daily, it just kind of catapulted into, okay, well, we'll just push these in here for a little while and we'll deal with them later. And now here we are, what, five all close to six years later. And so I'm not quite sure why that didn't dawn on us whenever you were asking us kind of what the catalyst was, but that was most definitely apparent once we got in there and started working.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

I think it's so interesting that neither of them realized how much Eric's mom's passing had contributed to the clutter until they actually started going through the room. That's something that I see a lot with clutter. Many times we don't even know why things have been sitting there for years until we start digging in. So let's jump back to our session and talk about what they actually want this office to become. Let's talk intention. What are the three to five things that you want to do in this room going forward?

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Sometimes I have to come home and do paperwork. There's times that I need to just to have a quiet space to work, video conference calls like this, instead of sitting out in the middle of the dining room, having an area where yes, we could shut those doors and just be able to function as an officer where we can find things, we can file things and get a little bit more order.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Yeah, that's great. And then uh Chelsea, would we want you to have workspace in there too? As far as the desk, I think we could both utilize that.

SPEAKER_03 10:00

Like what I would envision being in there is being able to like work on our budget because it's important for us to keep our personal finances in order. And I'm very much the type person that's like this task belongs in this space. Like I couldn't go sit on the beach and do work. That's not where I do work. It's difficult for me to sit down at this table right here and say pay bills or work on our budget. But what I envision is if I have a space dedicated to doing those tasks, that I would come in and actually do those.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Yes. Okay. So a desk that's set up for both of you that has space for filing and being able to go there for work, but also do your home stuff. And then anything else that needs to be done in there or live in there?

SPEAKER_03 10:48

I would like somewhere to store books because we do have a decent amount of books. Um, I mean, we probably have four different piles of books throughout this house. So it'd be nice to have one. And I have a whole space.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

I have all of my books from PT school, like all of that binders and stuff like that. They're just in a storage, and I would like to have that out. That way I could possibly use it as reference.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Do you vision using the couch to be like a reading space? Or would you imagine reading and using them at the desk?

SPEAKER_02 11:15

I haven't really visioned the couch being in there until just now.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

So I have not thought of sitting on that couch and reading, but I do like that idea because Eric may be watching something on the TV and I'll want to sit in the living room or in the den with him and read, but that's way too much stimulation. Yeah, and tune out what's on the T. And so that would I wouldn't actually Yeah, that's actually a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Because I mean, I I like listening to books more. Yes. I like to listen to books more, so that would be a nice place you'd close the doors and just you know sit in there and listen to your book and everything. So that's actually a really good idea.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Yeah, I like it. So it's like so it's gonna be an office slash library, like library reading space. And then I have what I imagine is going to be the hardest question I'm gonna ask you all today. So the thing that I didn't hear you say you were gonna use that space for is a dumping ground. What that means is that we need to know where the next dumping ground is going to be, because unless you're gonna never dump again, which in my 20 some years, I've never seen a significant handoff from dumping ground to no dumping ground. So this is the challenge, right? So when we go in where and we start clearing stuff out, we're gonna have to put that stuff in its home, which may not exist yet, right? So tell me about storage in the rest of the house. Like, where is the other storage that you have available to use? Eric is shaking his head, like, no, there is that's not a thing, Star.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

I I don't think so.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

I mean, I well, because most of our storage spaces are chock full of other stuff. Yeah, you see, the thing around here is that yes, that is the room of doom, but we have essentially made any cabinet or any unused bedroom a jump drawer.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Yeah, a jump drawer. We need to establish like where do the lost things go? Where do the things go that you guys are resolving or it's overflow? Where's going to be the space for that now going forward?

SPEAKER_02 13:00

I'm gonna buy a 10 by 20 building to put out here in the back.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

I love everything that you're saying, Eric. Please, I'll wait, go grab it. Yeah, don't hold your breath.

SPEAKER_03 13:11

Good solution. Keep providing in my mind. I'm thinking, well, for one, I would I would like to at least try to make it a small dumping ground. So like a section of it to be a dumping ground, correct? Like a section of the room instead of a full room. But I would think potentially in our middle bedroom, because when we do have guests, the front bedroom is always the bedroom that they're gonna go to. But the problem with that is I have that beautiful iron bed in the outdoor shed.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

It's been there how long?

SPEAKER_03 13:42

It's been there since before we moved in, but that was in this house when I grew up. And it wouldn't, if we could get that little bedroom set up, like a bed. Well, there is a bed in there, but I would love to paint that iron bed and have a cute little spare bedroom.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

So you have your primary bedroom, the main guest bedroom, and then this kind of secondary guest bedroom where Chelsea you're wanting to bring the brass bed in. Why could you not use the brass bed in the primary guest bedroom?

SPEAKER_03 14:09

Well, the primary guest bedroom, we have a queen size bed in there currently, and the middle bedroom has a full-size bed.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Yeah, it's much it's much smaller.

SPEAKER_03 14:19

And the the iron bed is uh is a full size, full-size bed.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

I have an idea. Okay. So, because we need a dumping ground and we need ideally an organized dumping ground, which in my mind, maybe this moment, this chapter of your life is not about having a second guest bedroom. It's about having a space to process things that are in transition. And the celebration at the end of organizing the house is getting to set up the second bedroom with the brass bed, right? What if that becomes the thing that you're working towards? And in the meantime, one of the things that I can imagine is having shelves in there, so chrome shelves that have wheels on them. I'm kind of thinking that we need to acknowledge that you're working on the whole house and it's gonna take you some time to get the whole house under control. And the brass bed is great, but if the brass bed gets used once every two years, it's not letting us use the space in the way that you might need for your own support.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

That's a really good point.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

You just you just pretty much said what I've been thinking.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

I love you too. I'm gonna call BS on that. He's like, it was my idea. Star said it.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

That's right. Said it out loud.

SPEAKER_03 15:27

But really, like I would have never thought of it like that. But that's a really good point. I mean, when was the last time that we needed to use both bedrooms? And the thing is, because we will have to store the mattress and box spring, but I mean, even if they're like stored up against the wall while we do our it still gives us plenty of room. Yeah. And if we were to truly need that bed to sleep someone on, we could pull it down and do that.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Yeah. Cause I could see that bedroom being a project room. One of the things that is hardest for people who are working on their whole home is that they don't have somewhere that's like a clear space that they can work. And so what I do a lot of times is I'll tell people set up a six-foot-long folding table with a trash and a donation and recycle bin underneath it and make that your space that you bring a box to. You sort through it and then you take it away. You allow yourself to have a space where you're not having to crunch on the ground or put stuff on a bed. And if you get called away, which often happens with my lovely neurospicy friends, nothing is getting hurt, right? You're not hurting the rest of the house by being in transition. We want to make space for you to be in transition. I'm not inviting in this bedroom to become a junk room. I'm inviting in for it to become a project room. And the project that you're working on is organizing the whole house.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yeah. I mean, I like that idea. What would it take for that bedroom to be the project room? Like what would we need to do right now for that space to be able to welcome the transition? We would need to take the items off the bed.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

We would need to take the bedding off the bed. We would need to take the bedframe down and just put that up. And then really, honestly, the stuff that's in there would be the start of our project, really.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:03

It's really nothing more other than taking the bed down, setting up the six-foot table, like you said, and then and starting to work on the items.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

What we want and what we're looking at overall with all these projects is how do we reduce the amount of friction that we feel when we go to use our stuff when we're working on other projects? How do we not be experiencing that pain while we're working on something else? I really love this idea. Do you think that you need shelving in this room while it's the project room?

SPEAKER_03 17:31

The shelving that is at your clinic right now that we were talking about bringing home, is that too tall to fit in that?

SPEAKER_02 17:37

No, because it's it fit in that room. So we could it could definitely fit in there. Yeah. It comes apart. We can take it apart. It does too far. Yep. I have a full shelving that we could put in there.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Perfect. That'd be great. We want it to be okay that it's a work in transition. And ideally, we want it to be intentional. So having it on a shelf versus on the floor, the floor is just going to stack up and then you're not going to be able to walk in there and it's going to become the next room of doom. We're not recreating your room of doom. We're creating an intentional project space so that you can organize for the next six months to a year and get the whole house organized. So tell me, when would be a good time for you all to set up that the project? We're just going to now call that middle bedroom the project room. That's the project room.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

I could get that shelving here this week, at least get it here and get it set up.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

So this weekend would be, I mean, I think we could perfect. Are you two ready to show me the office?

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Absolutely. I'm excited to see it.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Oh, I can't wait.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

Okay. So here is walking into it.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

There's no walking into it.

SPEAKER_03 18:35

Well, yeah, there's not a whole lot of walking into it because there's not a lot of space. I love those doors.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

I know, aren't they amazing? So as we walk into the office, the first thing I notice is what a beautiful space it is. There's this big window overlooking a tree and the neighborhood with tons of natural light pouring in. But almost every square inch of that floor is covered in stuff. There is barely enough room to walk into the room. You can still see glimpses of the functional office that it used to be, but after more than five years of things piling up, it's pretty much disappeared beneath the clutter. There's a beautiful functional room in here. We just have to find it.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

I mean, Star, please tell me you have experienced rooms that are this out of control before.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Well, this is nothing, my friend. This is like easy peasy lemon squeezy. This is okay. This is fun. Okay. If you say so, uh I trust you. It is.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Things don't like to get thrown away in this house.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

And is there a specific person who doesn't like to throw the things away?

SPEAKER_02 19:31

I'm not saying names. I am not saying names.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

But it wouldn't be you?

SPEAKER_02 19:35

Not as much, no. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

Not as much.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Chelsea is pointing at herself, I will say that.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

I know, and I understand it's difficult. I do.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

I wish you could see the differences in their face. Chelsea looks like a mischievous little fairy who's going to do something nefarious. And Eric looks terrified because he's seen this play out before, and he's both beat red and just like, no, ma'am.

SPEAKER_03 20:00

Perfectly accurate descriptions of us two. And fantastic. I do recognize for whatever reason, I do hang on to things. It's not necessarily difficult for me to separate from things, but once they're separated, it's difficult for me to get them out of the house. I had a piece of ribbon that really did not have any use, but because it felt so wasteful to me, it's difficult for me to go put it in a trash can to go to the landfill.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Eric, I can tell you would absolutely have taken that ribbon that Chelsea was all about holding on to, and you would have had that in the garbage. And I could see in a world where Chelsea would go in and get that out of the garbage and be like, but that could be so we don't want to have that happen either. Yes, because that may or may not have definitely happened before. More than what? Is there anything else that makes it hard for you to let go of things, Chelsea? I mean, definitely you would say I'm probably sentimental about throwing certain things away. Yeah. So let's just look at the office. If you were gonna guess what percentage of the office is sentimental, what percentage is sentimental?

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Actually, not probably 20%, 25%.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

And then what percent is just stuff that needs to be put away somewhere else in the house?

SPEAKER_02 21:07

The rest.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Okay. And what percentage is office stuff that should be in there?

SPEAKER_02 21:10

About 20%.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Yeah, yeah. I would say some between 10 or 20 percent. What do you think would make it easier to get organized?

SPEAKER_02 21:18

It would be to have a system to where when we get rid of something, it doesn't cause anxiety.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

Yeah, and I will say, like yesterday, I recognized that I had anxiety rising up in me as I was like physically moving something from one pile to the next or to the donate bag. And I had to like take a second. I don't recognize necessarily when I have anxiety. And yesterday it was like palpable. Like I could feel that this was making me anxious. But on the other hand, like I was so excited to do it. Like I was excited to be getting rid of some things that are not bringing me joy or beneficial.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

So, what I hear you all saying is that it sounds like it's less spatial and more. Behavioral, that it's not about like we need an extra room, we need something we're missing, or we need shelving. It sounds like we need an ability to release things without anxiety. We need either systems that help recirculate things back into life again or ways to let go of things. Sometimes when we start to organize more intentionally, the anxiety that's always been there just gets a little bit louder because now we're not unaware of it and we're not lost to it. There's the belief that sometimes it's like, oh, well, I know I'm not going to feel anxious anymore. You may always feel anxious about it. And so what we can do is figure out what supports that anxiety. Like what systems do we need to have in place to support the anxiety? Part of it is how do we have you two work together?

SPEAKER_02 22:41

And like I can tell you, like, my biggest, my biggest thing is like there's there's things that I would throw away today. Like I know stuff that I would throw in the garbage can, but I don't because I don't know how she would react to it or if she wants it, you know? And so I don't want to hurt her feelings by throwing something away or something that is sentimental or whatever it is, but there's stuff that I could toss today and it would not affect me at all. But knowing that it could possibly affect her, I'm not doing that.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Yeah, which is great, which is very admirable because there's a lot of couples where people do get rid of each other's things and it's such a traumatic violation. What people don't understand is if someone gets rid of our stuff without our approval, people tend to hold on to more and the clutter gets worse. It doesn't make it better. They feel like they need to hold on to more to protect themselves. So I'm very glad to hear you say that. It's very healthy and will be very helpful long term for you all with the clutter journey. One of the things that I noticed in our last session was that the volume of stuff didn't match the space you needed to store the stuff. So the only solution, unless we're going to expand the amount of storage space, which we don't really have the option for, is to reduce the stuff. And it's tricky because it's going to mean getting rid of things that are perfectly good that we could use one day that just don't fit because we have to honor the space that we have right now. And we're just going to hold space for the fact that that can be painful to do and it can be uncomfortable. And that sometimes those of us who really care about our objects need to spend a little bit more time solving their next chapter.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

And I don't want to be that. I certainly did not grow up for any needs. I mean, I was well taken care of. I had anything that I needed. I did not go hungry. I was very fortunate and all of that. But also, money was not abundant either. But I do wonder sometimes if that's why I hang on to stuff. My grandfather always either worked in grocery stores or owned his own grocery stores. He would bring home the food that was about to go bad or the dented cans. And that's what my nana would. She would take lemons that were about to go bad and freeze them in ice cube trays. And then we would have lemon juice when she needed lemon juice. I think a part of me growing up like that, it's like, I don't like being wasteful. And that's not to say that I'm not a consumerist because I do buy stuff that I absolutely don't need. But I definitely have a real conflict in my brain a lot of times about consumerism and being wasteful.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

When I hear your story and thank you for sharing, it's so obvious that that value of not being wasteful was a part of your childhood, is a part of your development, is a part of genetics, even because they did that before you were born. So that's just it's part of who you are to make the most of things. So for both of you, what would make it easier to get rid of things? Since anxiety seems to be the main thing that's causing the hold on. Eric had to take a deep breath just to process that. I know it's a big question. What were your thoughts, Eric?

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Well, I mean, my anxiety would be better as long as her anxiety is okay. I want to be as supportive as possible and sit here and help. And by doing that, I think that will help my anxiety a great deal.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

Like I so easily get overwhelmed. I think part of the anxiety is that there is so much to tackle.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

We want to honor the fact that that creates anxiety for you. And we want you to be able to do it at a pace that doesn't hurt as bad. So we want you to be able to like go in there, play your music, work on stuff. One of the things there that can be really helpful when she's working on stuff that's stressful, just be around. If you could come and listen to an audiobook together while she's working on stuff, you could be, I don't know, doing a crossboard. It doesn't really matter what you're doing, but sometimes just having someone nearby is super helpful for keeping people with ADHD on track and reducing that anxiety. Don't underestimate the power of just being close while she's working on something really hard because she might need to tell a story. She might need to talk something out with you. And your presence can mean the difference of it taking three hours or it taking 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

I like that idea. My little task mastering. He's your support husband. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

That's right. I'm her clotive support animal. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Is there anything just to get our hands working today? Is there anything in this room that can be donated or recycled today just to make some space? Oh I've never seen anyone move so fast, Eric. You're he's ready. He was waiting an hour and a half for that question. Easier for it. Like I've been waiting. Yes. Now that we've come up with a strategy for tackling the clutter throughout their home, I want to give Chelsea and Eric about 30 minutes to actually get their hands on some stuff and start making a little progress in the office. And the minute we get started, Eric is off to the races. He's grabbing boxes, clearing things out, and just having the time of his life. And Chelsea is doing great too. She's making decisions, letting things go, and moving through the process with surprising ease. In fact, a lot of the stuff in this room isn't nearly as difficult to deal with as they might have expected. But every once in a while, Chelsea comes across something that stops her in her tracks. And it's those little moments that really help us to understand what's been keeping this room stuck for so long.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

I couldn't tell you where those boxes came from. So they could either go to recycle or if they would be beneficial to open up and put stuff in.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

I think that's what we need to do. Make them for the project room.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

Yeah, make them for the project room because they're perfectly unused boxes. You two are doing great. You were ready for this. I know. I don't I mean, this is just it's so long overdue, but it's just so vastly overwhelming, you know? Yeah. I mean, look at this. That's five boxes, but I know they got put there because I want them to go to the recycle. And a bit of this is there's certain things that I have to just be like, okay, Eric, will you just tend to this and don't tell me what happens to it? It just needs to leave this space. And if I don't know that it didn't go to the recycle, maybe it won't hurt me. Okay, so these are see, like this is the kind of stuff I do, Star. I have this black bag right here. These are the two items that were in it a thing of sunscreen and a piece of duct tape. Now, why we have folded up duct tape?

SPEAKER_00 28:32

High level items in there.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

And it's like, that's the stuff that why would that little bit right there stop me?

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Why would that well it makes sense to me that it would stop you because you don't know what to do with it? The minute that we see something that is a little bit ambiguous, it can totally like so imagine the way I describe a lot of my neurospicy people is that you all are going 90 miles an hour. And when you find something like a piece of duct tape, it slows you down to 10 miles an hour. And from 90 to 10 is a big shift, and it's really overwhelming, which is often why you pivot yourself and then move 90 miles an hour in a different direction because you're like, I don't want to go 10 miles an hour and figure out this thing that is not that important next. And then you may not have even seen the sunscreen, or maybe you were gonna turn that bag into a summer bag, or who knows? But it really is common for items that are random like that to totally throw people off.

SPEAKER_03 29:25

Okay. Well, hey bug, can you reach this for me when you come back? Just these two need to go in that very top. So that's one item that I can actually go ahead and put in its real place. Oh, good.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Notice how much stuff has a home, or it's actually really easy to release from this space.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

Yeah, this has been kind of surprising. Now, I know that underneath there, there are items that are gonna totally throw us both for a loop, but it has been surprising how many things just need to be put in their place.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Do you feel like you guys are on a good roll now?

SPEAKER_03 29:56

Yes, I feel like we have a great launching off point.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

I feel like getting that project room set up is gonna be such a game changer for you.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

No, I think you're right. I think that getting that set up will be the catalyst to a lot of it.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

I think so too. You're making a giant change. And I could see part of you getting a little anxious of like maybe it's never gonna go away. The whole the thing that I think is uncomfortable for people is they want everything to feel better right now. And when you've got whole home clutter, it takes time and it takes the time it takes. And I will be fiercely protective of you all because it takes the time it takes. What we're doing is we're embracing the fact that this is an ongoing journey, that this is a bigger project than just two days over a weekend, that this is something that's gonna take months to get addressed, and it deserves space for that to happen. Okay. So, how was that for you both?

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 30:45

Yay! Eric's like elated over here. He's like a little yes, like really just that right there has been other way to do that for quite a while. Good. I love it. And how did it feel too, Chelsea? Yeah, it feels great. I definitely like sitting here looking at it. I can feel what we talked about earlier. I can feel a little tightness in my chest because I know what is yet to come, but I feel great that you can maneuver around in there. I feel great that we have a plan for tackling that ring along with some of the other ongoing projects. I can look into it and I can vision what I want it to look like. But I just didn't realize that you would just be so tickled about just getting that. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Yeah, that makes me happy. The thing that I'm seeing as I'm witnessing you both is Eric is super organized and he is probably thinking 10 steps out. So, what that means is for the last six, eight months, two years, he's been feeling what needs to happen and he's been holding himself back because he loves you so much and he doesn't want to cause you distress, right? And every time he walks by that room, all those 50 things are talking to him. So it's interesting because the anxiety you feel about getting rid of things, he tempers daily to walk by that room. Would you say that's correct?

SPEAKER_02 31:56

That's 100% correct.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Yeah. And that's also why the project room is going to be so helpful because we want Eric to be able to take action on the things that he can and the ways that he's able and desires. And we need you, Chelsea, to have space to not take action until it feels right. We need space for you to be able to be in that messy middle of it doesn't quite feel right yet, or I don't know why. And I need a little room, like, think of that like a tornado room. Like you just get to go in there and buzz around and process. But I think it's really important to notice it's like we've got two people living here doing things very differently. And we need both of you to feel like you are able to come to the party. And I do think this project room is gonna help.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Well, 100% it is.

SPEAKER_03 32:33

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And I would not have thought of it like that. And it made like I knew that the clutter makes Eric extremely anxious, but it makes me sad to know that he feels like he's gonna stifle in him the desire to declutter and get rid of something because I'm being a loony tune.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

But you're not being a looney tune. That's not it. It's just the more that I have studied ADHD to understand so I can temper, you know, my frustrations or everything else. Because I I mean, I want to understand. I want to understand to make sure that I don't do anything that upsets you. But at the same time, you know, there are things that I want to move forward with, but I'm scared to move forward with them because I don't want it to throw you into like this overwhelming feeling.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

I just want to give you props, Eric. To have an ADHD partner is a delicate thing. I witness many partnerships that are experiencing constant conflict because they're waiting for their partner to be neurotypical instead of educating themselves and understanding, oh, my partner works in this way. So thank you for educating yourself to understand what she needs and how to support her because this is not her trying to be a pain or trying to be messy. It's the way that her brain is wired. And this is the person you chose for the rest of your life. And I'm sure she does the same thing for you. I witnessed both of you really showing up for each other, and it's beautiful. One of the ideas that I had as you all were talking was what if once a month for 20 minutes or an hour, Eric gets to do his big purge items? Like that was 25 or 30 minutes of him moving stuff out. And I would imagine that Chelsea could tolerate 30 minutes a month or 30 minutes a week of you getting to move whatever's the loudest for you. We're not trying to fix everything, but okay, has there been anything that you want to take action on that you've been feeling a little intimidated to work on because you don't know how it's going to affect me? Let's talk about it. Let's take some action on it. Because he is being patient a lot of the time, which is very loving and kind. And it's reasonable that he would want to take some action. So maybe it's a more conscious, intentional action where you can say, Hey, I've been thinking about these items in the entryway or in the living room. Can we work on them? And then you have that space so that Chelsea can be heard if there's anything that's holding her back. But the intention of that time is for you to move things forward and out so that they're not talking to you so loudly, Eric. Yeah. How would that feel to you guys? I like that idea. I think that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_03 34:44

Yeah, because I definitely don't want him to just constantly push aside what he wants to do or how he feels about an area or a situation because of me. Like I want to be part of the solution. I don't want to be this problem that he has to dance around and deal with.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Yeah. I want to say too, you are not a problem. You're not a problem at all. And he loves you and he's doing this because he loves you. He's not tolerating you. He loves you. And he's actually doing the work to meet you where you are. And I know it's really easy for shame to come up around the ADHD symptoms. And I just want to remind you and be a voice in your head that there is nothing wrong with you. You have a beautiful brain that has so many great ideas and so many benefits. And where the executive function piece can be really stressful and challenging, there's nothing wrong with you. Even the parts that feel challenging are not defects. You know, Eric has things that are hard for him that he needs support with also. It may not be the same things, but we all have that. So let us love you, let us show up for you, let us remind you how normal you are.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

And one of my favorite things about her is she's so creative. I mean, there's things that she can do. I it just blows my mind. Like it's just down to the simplest like Halloween costumes, how she can come up with things, or you know, when she really focuses on something like around the clinic, she comes up with ideas all the time. And I mean, I love them. She's brilliant. I mean, she's just brilliant. Don't ever think that you're a problem. Ever.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Okay. Never. I feel those tears right under the surface. Do you need a tissue, my friend? I was looking for one. I did not expect to get emotional. The grief is real because you've probably had a lifetime of feeling like there was something wrong with you and being told overtly and covertly that there was something wrong with you and there is nothing wrong with you. And fuck them forever making you feel like there was something wrong with you because there is nothing wrong with you. Thank you. You're welcome. When in doubt, and I'm gonna even leave this in the podcast fuck them. Fuck them. No one should make you feel less than that.

SPEAKER_03 36:36

Including myself too. You know, like I don't want to feel like I'm a burden. And that is sometimes how it feels because it is difficult for me. Certain things are difficult for me. And so, in addition to me being frustrated with myself, then I feel bad because that's just something extra too that he has to deal with. I'm so fortunate that he will pick up where I lack sometimes, you know, some really appreciative of that. And it's not lost on me that I have such an amazing supporting partner.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Yeah. And this is what healthy should be, right? It should be that we have somebody who sees us in all of our good and all of our challenges and shows up. And that's the best case scenario. And that's what I'm seeing here. Now that we've done our session together, what do you think the biggest takeaway you got from today is?

SPEAKER_02 37:24

That it doesn't have to be all done in one day, that it is a process, and we can have a room designated for that process so that even though you know that one room may be a mess, the rest of the house can be organized.

SPEAKER_03 37:36

I think my biggest takeaway is the skills that you've given the two of us to work together in completing this project. Because this project, it is big. It's it's far beyond this office right here. There is not one single room in our house outside of maybe the two bathrooms. That does not need it, does not need some form of decluttering. Maybe our den, our den's pretty good too. But you know, there's multiple, I mean, more rooms than not in this house do need to be decluttered. Um, and it can be so overwhelming. And so to know that the two of us have some tools, me know how Eric functions and be able to accommodate that, and Eric know how I function and be able to accommodate that. And I too love the idea of that project room. When Eric and I were dating, he made the comment to me how he never felt like he was really at home. He did some moving around and things like that as a teenager, as a child, as a young adult going to school. Even when we lived together in my condo that I had, he made the comment, I live out of a bag. And I didn't believe it. I was like, live out of a bag. Like I've opened this talent house to you, like any of it is yours. And one day I noticed like he lived out of a bag, even though this may have even been after we were married. Um, yeah. Or we were engaged before we got married because we did not live together a long time before we got married. And when we moved in this house, I was worried about him not feeling settled here.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

And we moved in and he was like, I feel at home. What made this house feel different for you than you'd experienced before, Eric?

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Well, growing up, we had to move a lot just for family issues. I mean my mom had to move a whole lot, so I never really could settle down. I could pack up my whole life in 30 to 45 minutes and move. So I never really truly felt like I had a home to go to other than the home that I was raised in. As a young child, that was that wasn't my home. But when we got here, it just it felt like ours. And we had taken this thing down and completely remodeled it and made it ours. And I loved every bit of it, and I still love every bit of it. And when I come home, you know, I want to come home to a sanctuary. The world beat you down enough. And when I come home, I don't want to feel like I'm still getting beat down.

unknown 39:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

And I don't want that for him. I want to do my part to make this place be as peaceful and as welcoming and as cozy as it was seven years ago when we moved in. And Eric was like, this is my home. I want for him, for this place to be decluttered and feel airy and spacious and cozy all at the same time. And I want us to both be able to walk in this house and take a deep breath because oh, we're home. Yeah. Not walk in and take a deep breath because it's like, oh shit, looking around and it's just overwhelming.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

And I don't want to, whenever people walk in, the first thing I have to do is apologize for the way my house looks.

unknown 40:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Because that takes away some of that groundedness, right? That feeling of peace. You know what I think is really beautiful that I'm hearing from your stories is that when I picture you, Eric, doing work on the house, I feel love. Like I felt it earlier, but I just was like, oh, maybe like housework. I don't know. Everybody's different. But when you haven't had that stability growing up, when you finally get it, it's like you can finally breathe, your shoulders relax three inches. And one of the things that I really want you to hear, Chelsea, is for him working on the house, it's like a sense of love. Do you feel that thing, Eric?

SPEAKER_02 41:01

Yeah, it's it's like, well, it's, I mean, this house is ours, and and I love this house, and I want to take care of this house, just like I would take care of her or my nieces and nephew. Sometimes does the word get overwhelming? Yes. But at the same time, it's working toward making sure that we have a home that we still love and we still want to be in. Because I I moved so many times that moving was exciting. It was never, oh man, I gotta move. But if I had to leave here, it would be heartbreaking because I love this place and I love what we've done to this place. And it's both of our ideas, it's both of our vision, you know. I wrote down what I wanted this house to look like on a napkin about three years before we even remodeled, and then I found it about a year afterwards, and it's exactly what I wrote down, is what we did.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

Yeah, and the two of us like sat at a bar with a beer one night and we talked it out, and so it's like it came to fruition. I don't know for me that I've ever felt like fully settled because I'm so about starting something and not finishing. I mean, there's, you know, walls that have absolutely nothing hanging on them. I want to get to that place where we both walk into this house and we just feel like we belong and this is where we're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

Yeah. The sense that I get from both of you and from the house itself is this is a big space of love. It's a space that you both feel really at peace and at home here. And think of when you both work on the space, it's like you're loving the dream that has come true through this space. This is the dream that you wanted 10 years ago, right? And you were finally experiencing it. And how beautiful is that? And so it's not about organizing as much as it is about nurturing yourselves and each other. You're giving yourself this loving space and the previous generations because this is a space that's held many people in your family. And I think that's probably one of the reasons why this house feels like a big warm embrace. And so try if you can to pivot from I gotta get organized to we are embodying this space. We are starting to come home more and more to this space in a way that feels authentic to us individually and as a couple.

SPEAKER_03 42:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

I really like that outlook.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

I don't know that I can put into words what these last two hours did for us. This room probably would have set for easily another year. Yeah. And look what progress you made in 30 minutes. I mean, it would have taken us 15 hours to accomplish that. And we definitely wouldn't have come up with the systems.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

About a month after our session, Chelsea and Eric sent me a little update on how things were going. And while they still had plenty of organizing ahead of them, I love what they had to share about what had changed for them since we talked last.

SPEAKER_03 43:30

So this is Chelsea.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

And this is Eric again.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

Checking in. It's been about a month since we met. And since then, we have made some really good progress.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

We have been able to get in the middle bedroom and really start working toward making that the staging room for our declutter. But one of the things I think that we really took away from the session with you is that progress doesn't have to be this big chunk. It can be little by little as long as we keep moving forward. Because we thought we had to make these huge, you know, gigantic sweeping clean of everything. And we don't have to.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

It helped us realize how we can support each other and how we can be mindful of each other's thought processes and just being able to support one another, doing this so nobody gets overwhelmed or frustrated. That was really, really a blessing in disguise for us.

SPEAKER_03 44:17

Yeah, it's really kind of the mindset change has really been amazing and not necessarily something that I would have initially gone into this thinking would happen. For me, even though there's still plenty of decluttering to do in the house, when I walk in, it's like a breath of fresh air now versus walking in and the air feeling thick and heavy and feeling kind of frozen. Like, where do I even start? It's really given us direction. It's hard to put into words just how beneficial our declutter session was with you.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

What I love about Chelsea and Eric's story is that they already have so much of what they've dreamed of. They have a family home that they've lovingly renovated and made their own, a wonderful partnership and a life they've worked really hard to build. But somewhere along the way, the clutter started getting in the way of enjoying it all. And what I think is so beautiful about their journey is that neither of them needed to change who they were. They just needed to better understand each other and find a way forward that worked for both of them. A month later, they still have a lot to do, but they're making progress, they're supporting each other, and they're already starting to feel differently about their home. And I think they're making space to live the dream, not to create some entirely new life, but making room to enjoy the one that they've already built together. Because at the end of the day, it's not really about having a perfectly organized house. It's about being able to walk through your front door, take a deep breath, and feel like you're exactly where you belong. And with that, we've come to the end of our very first season of What Are You Making Space For? I just want to say thank you so much for being a part of this journey. It's been such a joy getting to share these stories with you, and I am so grateful to everyone who opened up their homes and their lives to make this season possible. And we're not done. We're already looking ahead to season two. So if you have a space in your home that feels like it's been calling you and you're willing to share your story, I'd love to hear from you. You can apply to be on the podcast at starhanson.com forward slash podcast. See you next season. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. Every organizing session tells a different story, but they all leave us with one question. What are you making space for? As you move through your day, I hope you'll carry that question with you. Because getting organized isn't about creating a perfect home. It's about creating more room for the life you want to live. And if you're ready to start making space in your own life, I'd love to help. You can download a free copy of my book, Why the Am I Still Not Organized, at starhanson.com forward slash podcast, where you'll also find resources, classes, and ways we can work together. Until next time, keep making space for what matters most.